Join us as we explore JD's path to "finding the others" and creating AstroMagia– the first conference dedicated to the flourishing of Astral Magic. We'll also hear some updates and exciting announcements for the future of the conference.
We go on to discuss the power and transmission of astral magic in its myriad forms: the textual, the experiential, and even some seemingly unlikely places not oft considered by extant traditions.
JD shares his approach to talisman-making, and the personal stories of his work with Spica that brought him into this practice and relationship with the sky.
JD KELLEY is an astrologer, anthropologist, and artist known for his astral talisman creation and as founder of AstroMagia – the first conference dedicated to astral magic. Now in its fourth iteration, it continues to be the nexus for new research and exploration of the tradition of astrological magic.
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Episode Transcript
00:00
Jove Spucchi
Welcome to episode five of Occulted. My name is Jove Spucchi and I could not be more pleased and delighted to share this conversation with talisman maker, astral magician, and founder of AstroMagia, JD Kelly.
Join us as we explore JD's path to finding the others and creating AstroMagia, the first conference dedicated to the flourishing of astral magic. Well also hear some updates and exciting announcements for the future of the conference. We go on to discuss the power and transmission of astral magic in its myriad forms. The textual, the experiential, and even some seemingly unlikely places not oft considered by extant tradition. JD shares his approach to talisman making and the personal stories of his work with Spica that brought him into this practice and relationship with the sky. Welcome, JD. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
01:14
JD Kelley
Yeah, thank you, Jove.
01:15
Jove Spucchi
I'm really excited to have you on. I've been an attendee of AstroMagia since it started. It's been one of my favorite conferences, and it's been great to learn a little bit more about you too through the talk you just gave with Alkistis that was really wonderful through the International association of Astro Logical Magic. Really, really great content coming out of there. Yeah, I'm just excited to have this time to learn a little bit more about you, about AstroMagia and what brought you there. For folks who don't know you or your work, could you give us a little bit of background on who you are, what your practice is, and what led you to start AstroMagia?
01:45
JD Kelley
I think like a lot of people, and I think everybody's trajectories and entries into things is always unique and really special. But I would say with mine, it's probably not, you know, it's probably like run of the mill. We all maybe can relate. But, you know, I went through a long period of time where being obsessed with occult and esoteric content, I guess, for lack of a better word, was really high on my awareness from a very young age, and it mainly manifested in the beginning as obsession with mythological aspects of things. I grew up in southern Alabama and my grandmother was a very avid library goer. So we had a library card at a really young age, and it was card catalogs, you know, that's how we found books.
02:41
JD Kelley
So you get your turn at the card catalog, you can just sift through it and look at whatever you want, right? So I would always look for books on magic all the time. Magic, magic, witchcraft, whatever word I learned that might match that research, I was searching for it, and I had a very active imagination. There's some really funny stories about that. My dad is a. He is a natural bullshitter, and I appreciate that so much because it would always stimulate these weird thoughts in my head to try to make sense of some nonsense that he had told me. But anyway, as I had a really active imagination, like we all hopefully do as children to an extent. But when I did not find books on what I believed was actual magic, right? So I checked out the books on stage.
03:36
JD Kelley
Magic and sleight of hand, because that's what you could find in the library. And then you found some books that related to the history of religion and myth and stuff like this. I had my grandmother read those to me, and. But I didn't find the books I was really looking for. I was convinced that there were ancient books that existed about this. I don't know. You know, I've tried to sift back into what media was I exposed to as a child, and I haven't really quite found outside of the film Willow, I haven't really quite found, like, what was it that was making me so obsessed with this? I was convinced that Merlin existed, and I wanted to understand who the hell he was.
04:18
JD Kelley
And I was convinced that I was maybe tied to him in some way, not like in a weird past life thing, but he was my constant obsession as well. So, anyway, point being is that I became convinced in this library in southern Alabama, there must be a corridor that led somewhere down under the library where I would find the ancient books on actual magic, you know, that told me about it, you know, and then fast forward to. Well, not that long. Around the same time, the first large bookstore opened in my town, and I was obsessed with books. So I wandered around and I saw a cult, new age. And I was like, what the hell? My first thought, Joe, was literally, there are new books on this. Like, I don't understand. There are new books written about this.
05:14
JD Kelley
So then I had my first job from 13. So I already had, like, a major book buying habit prior to that age. But then once I had my own income, to an extent, the sky was the limit. I joked that I must have funded a couple people at Llewellyn Publishing, kids through college by myself as a child. So, anyway, that's what really got me. I think that a lot of my learning came through books. I was very much a solitary practitioner a young age. And, yeah, it was a book by an Italian last name author. I think her last name was Medici. And it was good magic. Was the first book that I ever read, you know, and I bought it because I thought that it would be the least inflammatory in the, like, super southern christian context I was raised in.
06:12
JD Kelley
There were other books I was interested in, but I quickly went through, like, not saying devoured and then let aside, but I was very serious about Scott Cunningham's work as a kid and Raymond Buckland's work as a kid. Do you mean I went through all those workbooks and did all that stuff? And Silver Raven Wolf's books were really fundamental to some of my really early life as a. I think a lot of people besides me are way better at speaking to some of the historical aspects of that. But what I would say is I became very quickly in my neighborhood, the kid that everybody went to have their cards read, to talk to them about astrology. You know, I was interested in.
06:54
JD Kelley
I think that in some ways I realized that, and I'm not saying it's the best match, but Merlin and the idea of the wizard was something I related to at a young age. And I'd never thought that I would one day be a person that could act like that in the world and it be legitimate or whatever. It's like legitimately illegitimate. But yeah, I think that's what it was. I mean, books played a major role in it because it took me a long time to find other people that were doing it. Of course, the Internet, for a lot of people of my generation, like the xennials, we sort of eventually have that tech, and it now plays a big role. So, of course, like chat groups and stuff like that, and finding, okay, there are other people that think about this.
07:49
JD Kelley
I've never subsumed myself completely in the world of esoteric. When I say subsumed or enveloped by, I mean that there's always been a huge component of my life, which I think is not uncommon for people like us or me, that I have really strong connections to, people that don't think like me at all. But there is like this introspective, personal part of it that I was always endeavoring around. And every encounter, all the important moments of my life are sort of being filtered through this knowledge that I was involved in. To summarize some of it, I think taking oneself seriously as a spiritual practitioner or whatever words were used. Yeah. I later moved to North Florida.
08:40
JD Kelley
I was very lucky in that as a 13 year old, I found out that there was a group in north Florida that I call it now, like metaphysical potpourri. So that it's like a grab bag of all kinds of stuff. It was people who were odd that I related to who were into UFO phenomena and into energy healing crystals and herbalism and Indian philosophy, you know what I mean? It was just like a grab bag of stuff. Auras and dowsing and pendulums and whatever, you know, it was everything. And I was innately curious. And the people who thought the things that were so different for me, I wanted to try to understand what they thought and why they thought it. Do you know what I mean?
09:27
JD Kelley
So when I would find a person that was ex navy engineer who is now building tech in their house and around their house in order for the beings of the Pleiades to communicate with them, and were meditating under it, he would host meditations underneath. I would go because I was curious about it. I didn't necessarily believe, understand everything. I don't know. In some ways, I quickly became less burdened by belief. I think that is something that is a weird one for some people. So I was lucky enough I found that group. There was a woman who was my Reiki teacher and became my very close friend. I'm still good friends with her. I helped celebrate her 70th and 80th birthday parties, and she created a space that and anybody that lives in north Florida, crystal Cottage, is still going.
10:24
JD Kelley
You know, they're praying for world peace there and personal planetary peace. That group changed me because they were a bunch of adults who thought that the Indigo children was a real thing. And I was a child that showed up and they listened to what I said and were curious about me as I was curious about them later. When you start thinking about how you become, you know, where's your alliances was more what you're drawn to. A lot of people survey and curious about a lot of stuff. I think foundational knowledge is really important, and you can never really be super good at everything.
11:03
JD Kelley
But I do think that I, and I did change this phrase, everybody knows jack of all trades master, and none of, you know, I later switched it a little bit for myself because I think that when one engages with their. I call it like, cyclical obsessions. Like, you're always brought back into relation to this obsession that you've had prior of interest, you know. And in that, I think there is an expression which is jack of all trades mastering some, you know, you slowly through this accumulation over time, are building a kind of foundational knowledge and more of an interconnected form of knowledge and experience. And so that took me to start to be serious about it, you have to pick something. So I was really obsessed with astrology.
11:54
JD Kelley
For so long I focused on astrology when astrological magic became more of a thing which would lead me into stuff to talk about. With AstroMagia, my practice of astral magic, you know, I definitely endeavored more with that, and I think it's true for everybody. It's not about me. It's more like, there are lots of things I've done, but people can't really take what we all are. You know, you have to kind of put yourself out there as something. And that might be the mercurial side of what advertising, marketing is. You have to seem like something, you know, some, a jack of all trades, mastering some. Because I think one of my big questions for myself is, I don't know, novelty is not my orientation, right.
12:47
JD Kelley
If we're always compelled by novelty, then, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but novelty doesn't capture my attention as much as something, just that I would resonate as. That's just fucking cool, do you know what I mean? Like, whatever that is, even I don't understand it. Something about that has substance or something interesting behind it or within it. And I think that those are the kinds of things it might take us in a different direction. That is not about specializing, you know, but it doesn't in this way that I've learned to operate within my own self. I can become obsessed with something for a little while, learn a lot about it, apply it, mess about with it, and then I think that I understand. I have to kind of put it to the side.
13:38
JD Kelley
But I know that it will come back, and I know that it's not up to me to be the one that holds all the knowledge there and knows everything about it. I don't need to be that person.
13:49
Jove Spucchi
Yeah, not everyone has to be a specialist. I think it's easy to get lost in the details sometimes when we're in a culture that places such an outsized value on specialization, sometimes at the cost of the cohesive, bigger picture. Sounds like you started in a fairly broad scope of interests and communities. Do you have an experience with that deep specificity that made you wary of it?
14:07
JD Kelley
I went through a really religious phase, which sounds odd. And I think that is something that I learned a lot from because it had some detrimental effects and positive effects. But one of the things was I spent about ten years of my life after that being heavily involved in Buddhism, a tantric form of Buddhism. And what was helpful about this was that I had a period of time that was a long period of time where I only endeavored with it, and I learned what is powerful about that, but also what's problematic about that, which is that it will limit your ability to think certain thoughts.
14:51
JD Kelley
I think that Alkistis frames us in a really interesting way, and I've sat with it for a long time, which is the idea of, and I'm probably going to say it wrong, but I'm going to speak about it in the way that I relate to, is that something is ideological. It has a limiting aspect to it. Any ideology we put on, and I mean that like a hat in education, which I later was heavily involved in a lot of what you try to teach, and a method I worked with was a method that imagined that there were different perspectives that we could take on all the time, like different forms of hats, and they had each our own color. And so when we're doing a certain color hat, like blue hat thinking is not critical in the way that black hat thinking is.
15:40
JD Kelley
Do you know what I mean? And it has this very archetypal sort of resonance to it a little bit at times, where green hat thinking is about what's possible and how would we approach this practically and grow it. I mean, blue hat thinking is imaginary and kind of open ended and not restricting ourselves. Black hat thinking is, how do we slice and dice this so that we get rid of the stuff that doesn't work in a judgmental sort of way, almost. So I think some of that did reflect to me the way that ideologies and perspectives also ultimately can limit us. But if we are able to have some ability to think of it as, okay, well, I'm going to take a break from thinking about it this way. I'm going to think about it this other way. It does change something.
16:29
JD Kelley
It might make you more confusing to your friends. You know what I mean? It might make you not the clearest coherent person anymore, but it does give you the skill to label and shift. And I think that can be really healthy from a thinking and an experiential side of two.
16:49
Jove Spucchi
And I love how you spoke earlier, kind of, about the cyclical nature of this, which you just referred to again, where if you're obsessed with something, and I love the word fascination because of the spiritual relational component to it, where that really shifts it from theory to praxis as well, where to really have a practice and embodied knowledge of a thing, you often need time away from it, or time to see all the things it's enmeshed with or in constellation with to understand the larger context of where the practice or the knowledge or the information sits. So I really love that.
17:18
Jove Spucchi
And it sounds like by being exposed to all these different people who are thinking in different ways, metaphysically, magically, all things that were divergent or occulted, if you will, was really formative and allowed you to sort of triangulate what worked for you in a very practical way.
17:34
JD Kelley
Yeah. And I think that inevitably, even though I became very. I don't know what other word to say besides devout. Because a lot of things changed about my life because of it. I made a lot of decisions because of it. And one of the saddest things I did was that library of books that I had accumulated since I was a child, I actually got rid of almost all of it that was not buddhist related because I kind of thought I'd found my thing. I mean, I get that we can't keep everything, right? I don't ever get rid of fucking anything if I can help it.
18:12
JD Kelley
Because, and this goes back to, I said, even if it's lasted ten years, a form of obsession motivated through an ideological reason that I can't think about these things anymore because they are deterrence to my path to enlightenment. You know, like the super. The point is I'm trying to get to is don't get rid of it. Do you mean resist the impulse? Just pack it away, put it in its container. And then later there will come a time where most likely, if you're like me, you will want to open that box again. So I returned in the early 2000 naughties. So I returned that. That time back to witchcraft was the first thing I returned to. And it was Peter Gray's apocalyptic witchcraft that really cracked open that for me again in a way that was really special.
19:09
JD Kelley
Still, I read that book at least once a year because it always makes me think things that I think are important. For me personally. I'm not saying it's applicable to everybody, and I am just saying that for me it's one of those. It woke me back up to that again. Yeah. So that's a return to this.
19:32
Jove Spucchi
Absolutely. It's an impassioned return to witchcraft with teeth. It's been a valuable text for me, as well as a call to action and even a call to anger in the ways that I mix my politics and practice. I always appreciate Peter Gray's ability to provide both the practical and historical context to be more present in our agency of the now.
19:52
JD Kelley
Yeah, it's a great book. There was one thing I wanted to say about 30 years ago. Where I lived in north Florida, you could not talk openly about these things. It was sometimes dangerous to be too open. It's why it also made these groups really special for me to stumble into, because there was no one that I knew personally that you could have a conversation about tarot and not be labeled a devil worshipper. Do you know what I mean? And God forbid you're actually worshipping the devil, and then how do you have that conversation? So anyway, my point is, we live in a very different world now. I think that's also what is sometimes still destabilizing to me because of my youth, how much fear there was around it and how taboo it was.
20:43
JD Kelley
And I think this moment of flourishing or intensity around it and interest, I don't really have a huge speculation. I thought it was time to Neptune and Pisces, you know, we will find out, Neptune being somewhere else soon. But my point really around it is that it's just a very different world. Back then, finding those others had a really huge impact on me.
21:09
Jove Spucchi
I can only imagine in the age of the Internet and a relatively safe time in history to be public with one's practices and beliefs. It's so easy to take for granted how exciting, accessible the information and community and dialogue is relative to just a few short decades ago. And if I have my timing correct, it was right around the time of the satanic panic. And in the christian south, there was a real threat of physical violence for anything deemed too countercultural or divergent from conservative christian beliefs. Finding someone, anyone, must have felt so freeing, even if their practice was totally different from yours, that was a time and place that demanded such vigilance and secrecy. And it must have been a very formative experience in how you choose to present or not present your practice and beliefs.
21:54
JD Kelley
Yeah, I think it was right before all of it, my awareness to it came a little bit after. But, yeah, you're right. It's like, had left a huge mark, you know?
22:05
Jove Spucchi
Yeah, I think there's something to be said about adversity and a kind of occultedness that can catalyze the finding of the others. When I first started a truly deep study of traditional astrology, it was during the difficult moments early on in the pandemic, suddenly having time at home to engage in a more serious practice. Astrological magic is what really drew me in as a way of building relationships with the stars and planets toward that cerebral and embodied astrological knowledge. In my own fascination, I was lucky to find and attend that first AstroMagia that. That really cemented my understanding and hearing other people give breath to their living practices. For me, it was that same place. Here are the others.
22:46
Jove Spucchi
You know, I'm trapped inside my home right now, but here are other people who can help me to learn and to explore and figure out my place and how I relate with this material. It's beautiful to hear how your involvement in this group in northern Florida, with its diversity in perspectives and practices, really seems to have influenced you to move through the world with a certain spirit of curiosity. Yeah, and for me, this curiosity is something I really see, feel and appreciate in Astromagia.
23:13
JD Kelley
Good.
23:14
Jove Spucchi
Am I seeing a connective thread there?
23:16
JD Kelley
Yes, I think it was a coalescing of a couple different things. You know, right before went into the twenties, there was a few things that happened. One, there was the publication of the celestial art by three hand press. And that to me signaled that this was a moment where astrological magic, which I think was the language that the subtitle uses. And I realized that it was something that was changing about it as well. What I think is unique about what I tend to default to calling astral magic because I think it's a little bit broader for some people in terms of their ideas. Later, I've kind of gone into more of these words, and I whatever word people want to use, it's fine, you know, star bothering or sky world bothering with. And who knows, maybe that's actually the underworld too.
24:14
JD Kelley
Like it's all together in the end. But my point is that astrology can become very conceptual. I don't want to call it abstract because it has a lot of things about it that resist a kind of complete abstraction. And I think Chris Warnock and several of the others who have been fundamental in its emergence in western astrological community said it really well, which was that no one wanted to do it. They felt weird about it. You know, it's always fascinating to me what people think astrological magicians do, because it's sometimes so off, in my opinion. And by that I mean like the idea that they're trapping spirits in the materia. Maybe there are astrological magicians that do that, but I haven't met them personally. But my point is that it's always inhabited, like a fringe aspect, for whatever reason. Maybe that's good.
25:08
JD Kelley
Maybe there is a strength in that, too.
25:10
Jove Spucchi
Yeah, there's definitely power in secrets.
25:13
JD Kelley
But the thing is that that's not true in the moment. You know, in the moment there's a lot of interest. And I think when there is a lot of interest. It is a moment for a flourishing of discourse around something that can have a meaningful impact for the times, that there is not a lot of energy and interest and flourishing. So it's kind of like whatever was in that box that was put to the side for a long time in the broader traditions, ideas of things. Luckily it didn't get totally chucked away. They didn't do what I did with my book. There are still some things, and people get in there and translate and mess about with those things. And now people care about. There's now a flourishing of that.
25:55
JD Kelley
This moment is important because I think that it is about moving that discourse and the way that it affects us forward. And I think that from a basic level, it allows us to move from concept to encounter. There are other domains of astrological knowledge and practice that do this. Herbalism applied consultation work is another place where we see this happen. Any place where you get into the messiness of applying what we know in astrology in the world, you're directly seeking encounter with these things. And sometimes the space that they exist is in the heavens. It is also maybe living in the world through materia. But I think that there is something about it that inherently pulls us out. Just like observational astronomy or observational astrology makes us have a direct encounter with the sky rather than a backlit screen or a piece of paper.
27:00
JD Kelley
We now have a direct experience that relates to some of it. Now, I'm not saying that direct experience is going to do very much for anybody always. It may not switch a lot on immediately, but I think it's probably due to our lack of familiarity and lack of experience with it. So in and consistently doing it does do something. I know that. So I think that's why Astromagia was important. Main focus was flourishing of the discourse. It was a time to do it in person. Conferences are limiting for so many different factors. I do think AstroMagia has coming, and I've said this for years now, like an in person component that is really vital. And I've been conceiving that for the last year and will release some stuff about that soon.
27:49
Jove Spucchi
I'm excited about that.
27:51
JD Kelley
Yeah, I'm excited about it too, because I think it will be a good, not a compromise, but like a good way forward. And it's a little more innovative than your classic. Like, we're just going to do everything online and in person at the same time. So I don't think that works, at least with what I think is important to achieve when we actually get together but the thing was around it was that the moment was right. And also, a lot of people needed an outlet, as you described personally. Yeah, were more like a captive audience, you might say. But this was more a context where I felt like it was something important that we could do. And it's, why don't they ever be in person all the time? But it will be maybe in person every five iterations.
28:37
JD Kelley
It seems like it might be possible.
28:40
Jove Spucchi
That's wonderful. And I love how that really echoes what I was hearing you saying, by stepping out under the stars and having that encounter. There's an inherent embodiment to that, and that's not something we can always do all the time, or with the stars or planets that we're working with, depending on where we are. But being able to do that even once every five years, to be in the physical space with folks in embodied way, is so important, especially for the transmission of knowledge. I was lucky enough to just spend some time with Demetra George and her timing techniques intensive.
29:06
JD Kelley
And you're a lucky one.
29:08
Jove Spucchi
I'm very lucky. I feel very blessed. Being in person and even just hearing Demetra speak and make these asides was so valuable. It's a different way of processing, of sitting in the mind and in the body than just being able to see something online or reading a text. To be there together and read Valens out loud, for example, was a very magical experience where we all got to be in this space, hearing each other's voices, hearing the words come to life and be brought to life by the current iteration of the practice.
29:37
JD Kelley
That's something, you know, that I really want to work on with this particular conference is how to allow that to happen more readily. Because I think the way that you do something and it becomes slightly self organizing is always like a dream come true. You've done enough to support something, to organize itself further and do something more interesting than you could even think of, and you've not done so much that it inhibits that to occur, you know, and that's kind of where I would like to go with it. I think some of the ways that I reflected on what it would be was about looking at where there were platforms for collective discussion about this subject, and it seemed like there was always something that was not allowing it to go forward. I'm not saying that's not for a reason.
30:34
JD Kelley
And this was the other thing. I attended the trans states conference. Please look up trans states. Really lucky to share a little bit at one of the. Was 22 I might be wrong. I'm sorry if I missed the year. The one I attended was in 2019, and that also informed a lot of it. It brought together academics, practitioners, and creatives. I'm not saying this is how they frame it totally, but this is how I understood it. That was another one. Seeing Alkistis Dimech's dance that was focused around encountering Venus in person, being there and seeing it happen made me realize that whatever we want to call it, like astral theology is alive. It's not something that happened in context in the ancient past, only there are people, even with Alcestis.
31:31
JD Kelley
I told her, the best I can say is you're an avant garde astral magician. That's what I sensed during that. This is a living moment of something that is very much of a theological nature, but is occurring in front of me, is making me have certain things happen right now. And so that's where I thought. This context of just looking at astrological magic in the way that's represented by the recovery of medieval renaissance texts only, and the applications of what they give is not big enough. It's not a big enough container for this experience, this forms of knowledge. They are interrelated. I've been spending the last few years really trying to understand ancient Babylonian ideas and various things about all of this, because I think there is a relevance there that's sometimes assumed, but not fully understood.
32:34
JD Kelley
And I'm not saying I fully understand that, because I don't. Yeah, it's one of my interests. And so what I'm trying to say about that is theological aspect of it is intimately bound up with the applied aspect of it, with the intellectual aspect of it is all in this hot mess. And I love that. I'm all about it. And that's why I wanted this to not be only what we might call in brackets, like western traditional astrological magic, not recovery. It's more like we're reconstructing it. I don't think that those projects are invaluable. I think they really are. And I am always interested in the people who are obsessed with that as their sources and their interests and their application. But I think to limit it to just that does an injustice to it as a larger thing.
33:30
JD Kelley
And then also not to mention the way that this discourse has always been bound up in a lot of other kinds of esoteric or widespread theological or whatever we want to call intellectual traditions that are valuable. So not giving space to those things as well, seems to be weird to me. So I think having somebody that can talk about, say, you know, the practice of how the, the sky is mapped onto the hand or the tongue or whatever. I'm just using as an example that, to me, illuminates something about this in a way that is not often apparent to us. Again, I'm not a gatekeeper of anything. Like, I don't want to gatekeep anything around it. I do think maybe there is an important role in protecting knowledge. Like, for example, you talked about balance.
34:31
JD Kelley
I'm pretty sure that text starts out by saying, like, if you're not meant to read this, you shouldn't buck and read.
34:38
Jove Spucchi
Keep it secret, keep it safe. Yeah.
34:40
JD Kelley
So I do think that is where we have a responsibility. Something else is there. That is our responsibility in this, I'm sure a challenge you relate to as somebody in the discourse production aspect of things.
34:55
Jove Spucchi
I think the visibility question is definitely one that's very relevant. There's certain power in things being secret and occult it, but at the same time, to really have a rich and flourishing practice, you need conversation, you need dialogue, you need interaction. And by bringing in more of the creative and embodied and material ways of working with astral magic, we are able to see what the tradition looks like without just purely privileging the more solar intellectual talk format. Bringing in Larry Arrington's wow mom piece, for example, was an incredible piece of astral magic. To have that in the context of all of this discussion was really illuminating. And to see how people are taking this knowledge and applying it within the same context, I think is very powerful.
35:41
JD Kelley
I agree.
35:41
Jove Spucchi
I love this year's theme, that's all about transmission, and I'm excited to see how the speakers run forward with that, AstroMagia has done a great job of really representing the different modes of transmission and practice that people work within.
35:54
JD Kelley
Yeah, yeah. Thinking about astral knowledge, I was really influenced by Diana Roeberg's work on Babylonian astrology and astral magic and the way that she conceptualizes cuneiform knowledge and thinking about the scribal elites, she helped me to think a lot about it. Then doing some further research on people who've thought about what is knowledge that is astral? What is its effect in the world? How does it come about? How is it transformed? How is it transmitted? What are the technologies that emerge because of it? I didn't want to fixate on techne because I think techne is a very special word and it has a lot of power to it. But I think literally saying technologies, or I could have said techniques there. But the technical or the technical technological is intimately tied with knowledge and textual.
36:55
JD Kelley
We've spent a lot of time the last year talking about this part that is not able to really be totally captivated by the textual, the importance of the textual or the oral. You can't deny the power of the textual tradition and its influence and transmission of knowledge. And Demetra George, you mentioned, and a couple others like Christa Mathis, are going to talk about translation because occult language, esoteric language, has its own methodology and is intimately bound up in the culture of that moment that is often tied to in ways that we don't recognize.
37:39
JD Kelley
So translating a text that is coming out of that then becomes the text that people use to speak to the planet or to enact an operation or create something, all of these things are really important for us to at least for a little moment, bring to mind and like, bat around and, you know, and I think that's the fun thing about a conference, is it is a confluence of a lot of different directions. And what people always say to me that have been involved with it and also participated as supporters and are there because that's a huge part of it. I could not understand the logic behind why all these people were talking of this thing. But then I went to it, they gave their talks, I had the experiences of it, and it made perfect sense to me.
38:30
JD Kelley
The last few years, a lot of people have shared and in great detail their work and passion and hard earned knowledge. It's important that they are receiving something of value for that. So the ticket price has been really high the last few years, I think, for what a lot of people can afford, and that's something I've sat with every year, because I am a kind of give it away person, you know, I've had to learn not to do that. The last year really made me reflect on what is possible to really fairly honor what I see people are putting in a. And also what the community of people who actually can support Astromagia happening can afford. If you're listening to this and you are willing to give a lot more, please do.
39:24
JD Kelley
I'm always open to very generous donations because it will be well spent, I promise you.
39:30
Jove Spucchi
Pricing is such a difficult question, too, because relative to other conferences, there has been so much content with so much value for the ticket price, especially when comparing to some of the bigger events, shall we say?
39:42
JD Kelley
It is a lot of value. I think I agree with you.
39:45
Jove Spucchi
I know I'm still catching up on the content library from last year, and I regularly go back to the previous years to reference talks in my own research all the time. With the current economic conditions in particular, I contend that it's still a big purchase, but for the quality and quantity of the content, there's a lot of bang for your buck.
40:02
JD Kelley
I appreciate that. The video library, again, send an insight. Alkistis helped me see that the video library is the video anthology for right now. It's very reasonably priced, in my opinion. You know, it's 111 pounds, $111 to ten in person. We split it up as well, up until, I think, July 13. You can pay for it in two segments if you want to. Now, the access to the video library is priced at dollar 44, and it's for the rest of the time that I can keep a website to host it. You know you have access to it. I'm not going to pull it away from you unless I am dead or the website is dead.
40:46
Jove Spucchi
And it's something too, that I have friends who are not astrologers but are in the magical world or have their own occult practice and have encouraged them to watch certain talks and things like that. And they have gone back and have ended up buying the previous libraries. Because it's not just astrology that's happening, it's magical thinking. And there's people from all over that world who are sharing really deep theoretical knowledge, but also highly practical knowledge from their own multi see decade practices in many cases.
41:10
JD Kelley
I'm glad.
41:11
Jove Spucchi
And I can't wait to see what's added to this year's catalog. And on that note, is there anything format wise or content wise that you see changing in am four?
41:21
JD Kelley
Okay, so I've really been sitting with. For a lot of people, it is an overload, but I wanted it to be. I wanted to make people realize, like, how fucking cool all this shit is and all these amazing people doing this from all different. Scholastic, practitioner, creative, mixed about with that two direction and the intersections with other disciplines and fields of study and interest. Now, I do think there is a challenge that I'm interested in. It's a paradox in some ways, which I'm fascinated with, the paradox of planetary pairings. So Jupiter connecting with Deborah, there's resonance between their signatures. That might be good, but Jupiter, while it's in Gemini, it's not very helpful. But I've been sitting with how the paradox of it is kind of helpful is how do we create an aspect of coherence within a context that struggles to create coherence.
42:21
JD Kelley
And I think that this one is about less lengthy individual talks and sessions, and just as many individual talks and sessions as there are panel sessions and not running anything this year simultaneously. Everything. It will be a linear program in that it will happen in time zones and be a lot longer, and nobody's going to be able to attend all of it, but somebody will. So there's a different limiting factor that's based on where you live this time. I don't want anybody besides me to have to try to do the damage to yourself, to try to attend it all. Please don't have go to the ones that match your life because they're supposed to for you. And there'll be a bunch of panels, you know, whole bunches, just as many panels.
43:11
Jove Spucchi
The panels are often my favorite part, the one that I believe is you, Sasha, Ravitch and Alkistis. There may have been someone else I missed.
43:18
JD Kelley
And JD Hamade.
43:20
Jove Spucchi
Yes. Was so beautiful to hear the more witchcraft expression of astral magic come out, and I feel like I learned so much. And then the participatory angle of those who were able to join the call in real time to ask questions was just wonderful. So I'm so excited to hear that there's more of that. And what a beautiful way to also lean into this theme of transmission, to have these other facets and opportunities for connection.
43:43
JD Kelley
Yeah, totally. I want it to trigger connections as well. Like, I know that just because you're in the same time zone as someone, that can also not be a very close connection. But, like, one of the things that happened for us here in the UK as it relates to is we started to understand the UK, who are the other people who were involved in this, and that next step for us that are here is to connect and be together in some way, either using technology or getting together. And that needs to happen for all of you. So it's about finding where there is coherence that can occur within the excess of what it needs to occur, you know, and that's the way I have thought about it.
44:28
Jove Spucchi
Yeah. And it's beautiful, too, bringing in the spirit of place and kind of having this very gemini, double bodied kind of way of presenting the conference. It feels very expressed through the transits as well.
44:38
JD Kelley
Yeah. Yes.
44:40
Jove Spucchi
Outside of AstroMagia, what does your own personal astromagical practice look like? I know that you make talismans and work with materials and do some metalworking. Can you tell us a little bit more about that practice and how it's evolved over time?
44:54
JD Kelley
I can trace back talismanic work that I was already doing once I had a broader perspective of what it was. I could trace it back to being in university, and I would take friends natal charts, and I would make physical representations of their nativities so that they could encounter it and understand it. The ones that they could swivel around and, like, look at it from different perspectives. I use different technologies to make them three dimensional. I have an art background as well, you know, I was doing art relating to it. I would, under astrological configurations, in ritual context, would sew and embroider, do bead work that related to things that were. That they told me they wanted to try to learn, to emphasize, and I would give it to them. I also, with the nativity work, it was interesting, and this is all experimental.
45:50
JD Kelley
After I made it, I figured out that I could actually still connect into it, even though it wasn't with me anymore. And I could alter or update or change things about it that had an effect in their life. And then it was under a spica lunar configuration that I did some of the first return to. After the long hiatus of Buddhism, I returned to doing my first. What I now know is like an astral magical operation, where I had a great southern viewing space. Lived in the third story of this. Really lovely. I was really lucky. It was quite secluded. I was able to see Virgo very clearly. I could see Jupiter's presence, I could see the moon's presence. And I enchanted something for these women that were in my life who were really important. Sorry, I'm getting a little.
46:52
JD Kelley
I don't know why I apologize. Anyway, it's something I still have.
46:57
Jove Spucchi
Sorry, Joe, no apologies needed.
46:59
JD Kelley
It triggered a lot of stuff for me, you know?
47:03
Jove Spucchi
Yeah. One of the things I always appreciate when doing astral magic, especially for others, is how it does become embodied. It does reflect so much on our being and who we are. One of the reasons why I wanted to speak to you and really appreciate your work and your voice is the clear admiration and love you have for Venus in particular. And I'm really feeling that come through in you telling the story.
47:28
JD Kelley
Yeah, that is true. I do have a lot of love for her.
47:31
Jove Spucchi
And it really shows in the way that you're expressing emotion and care towards these women.
47:36
JD Kelley
Thank you. I was really touched. I was on the eve of helping my sister with the birth of her first child. Two of my best friends were descending into a lot of chaos in their life because of an autoimmune disease that they both. Two of my best friends who I went to school with, they both had diagnosed the same autoimmune disease at the same time. And, you know, one of them lost their vision. And it was just. It was a pivotal. It was an intense moment. And my mother was also going through a crisis. I was trying to rediscover like a ecstatic dance practice. And it was really helping me a lot to tune in with my sister and her body at a distance and be present to her changes that were happening relating to her birth.
48:33
JD Kelley
The point being around it was that it changed me. It really did, you know? And it was literally just me with colored pencils on a piece of paper, under the skyd, praying to these stellar beings. I needed their help, and these people needed their help. And I'm not saying that everything is great now with all of them, or fixed everything, but I do know it triggered all kinds of really interesting things between me and them and this and. But then later, when there was more information, a lot of people don't put it there, but Caroline Casey's making the gods work for you was a book that was really influential prior to the buddhism, which some people might consider it kind of nonsensical.
49:19
JD Kelley
But I think she's an interesting astrologer, and that she was trying to authentically reach out to other traditions that had living, ongoing connections with the gods. For example, the Orisha. She was trying to understand how we could practically engage with the stellar gods and just do it, you know? And so, again, some people would not lump her into the tradition of astrological magic. It also makes sense because at that time there weren't. And I might be wrong, but I don't think in 2002, and I could be wrong, there was not publicly distributed translations of a lot of the. I mean, a lot of stuff is starting around that time and a little after. But she's working with what she had and what was inspiring her.
50:16
JD Kelley
And I think the gods will do that, you know, they will find a way into our life, even if there is not an extent living tradition of things, you know? And I'm sure people like Chris Warnock or Austin Coppock or Caitlin Coppock, I'm sure that they could speak to this truth for them prior to the encounter with the traditional sources. I'm not trying to put words in their mouth, but I would imagine they would also have an aspect of this.
50:45
Jove Spucchi
I'm inclined to agree with you. While the texts and extant lineages are important modes of transmission, I see the spiritual as ultimately relational. And as much as we like to call out UPG or I or unverified personal gnosis, is there a greater truth than our own experiences talking to the sky. I don't think so.
51:05
JD Kelley
This kind of bothering. I call it sky bothering, you know, whatever, you know, getting up to bothering the sky and forming connections later than whenever I encountered the more what we might think of as the astrological magic revival. I was super stoked, you know, I was really stoked. And I am indebted to everyone that has done the initial works around it. You know, I think that it's not any bodies, you know, I think Chris Warnock is a great example of this. Very balanced, has pride in a good way, and then humility that isn't required, you know. So anyway, that kept informing it later, when I started doing. And it. It was a spike a piece that I first did, a collaborative work. It was a magic of material work with a friend of mine. I worked with her. She was very talented.
52:10
JD Kelley
Incense and oil, she had more experience in that than I did. I was working on the electional side and the ancient sources side of information, the applied invocational ritual side, helping her think about how she might do it. And then she did it. You know, I did my own stuff with raw emeralds at the time. That wasn't for other people, it was just for myself and her. And, you know, she included certain things that came up in a spica oil that she made really beautifully. She's very talented, and it matched Spica to me in a really lovely way, you know, and what we think about traditional significations of it. She still runs a bodhi basics. It's still going. I think Kim Baporean is her name. And anyway, very wise to the truth that materia is magical.
53:06
JD Kelley
It is a natural magic that it contains, that we don't have to do anything to it. It already is. It's always been Jupiter that I've leaned into really heavily. Jupiter and Venus, mainly in Sagittarius, Pisces, and then later solar work that I did. I think of it as a tangle that basically one is conspiring with the spirits and the material. You know, it's not an exclusively in any one side, heavier than the other. The material is teaching me as much as the insights I'm having from whatever we might call spiritual beings. And they are often am intimately bound into the work. This energy, or whatever word you're wanting to use. It I would again call a tangle of influences that are coming and heightening your awareness, your sensitivity to it, your ability to.
54:07
JD Kelley
And this is something that Michael, that I believe, and he also speaks to really well, you know, rather than just highlighting the material or the spiritual in one side or the other. He also puts a lot of emphasis on the practitioner, and I do think there is truth in that. I don't think AI, or like a mechanized way of making talismanic work will ever really. I mean, maybe somebody's smart enough to come up with a way for it to intelligently do what is being done by a practitioner. But I think that mechanized or AI aspect would have to have relationships. You know, it would need to happen, and then it's probably becoming more than what we think of as normal ways of thinking about those things. So it is not it anymore only.
55:01
JD Kelley
But my point is that I do think that the ability to get out of the way, but also to assist in how we amplify and hone and clarify or give, remove obstacles to. And I've been. I have been taught this mainly through doing it, you know, and I would say that you should. You know, I wouldn't say I think I agree with Caitlin, like, in that she said early on that if you're going to call yourself an astrological magician, you need to cite the chart that you're using, and then people can use their own guidelines around how you have interrogated that chart. They might interrogate it differently than you do, but they can also trust in the fact that you're experienced.
55:57
JD Kelley
So there's nothing that I've ever made for groups of people that I've ever done that had any sort of hesitations, the wrong word, but I wouldn't put it out there if I didn't have some sense that I was credible enough to do it.
56:15
Jove Spucchi
Part of that comes through your relationship with the planets as well, right?
56:18
JD Kelley
Definitely.
56:18
Jove Spucchi
That's the part that havoc a chart kind of each gives us. We have these inherent relationships due to the natal promise and where we're situated in relationship to the heavens at birth, and then also the relationships that we foster and built. And so, as magicians, the chart will show you the configuration of the sky at that time, which is important. But the relationship of the magician or the maker to the talisman itself is, I think, just as potent.
56:40
JD Kelley
Exactly. And it needs to be worth what it is, because not everyone does have the skill, and they've not worked hard to develop the various skills. I wouldn't class myself as a master jewelry maker by any sense of the word, but I definitely make jewelry, and I'm not a master gold or silversmith, but I definitely do gold and silversmithing. You know, I'm not a master caster, but it goes back to what we said around it. If you're an artistic, creative person, you're going to get your hands dirty with doing it. You know, if you're a curious person, you're going to be endeavoring to try to learn something about it, to now put yourself as a pro expert in all of it. That might be a stretch, you know, but is it enough skill to effectively solder silver or gold together and make unique pieces?
57:36
JD Kelley
And you're doing it. I am really interested in. There's a long history and magical practice of. And, you know, Caitlin and Austin are an interesting example of this. I don't think it's as straightforward as people imagine it. I'm not trying to say I spend much time imagining what's going on. I actually will tell you this. I am unburdened by imagining what other people are up to because it's just a waste of time. But what I mean by that is that, you know, we could say that John Dee was the magus expert of some kind, and we could say Edward Kelly, whose last name I do share, you know, is the applied, messy, chaotic kind of part of it that's a little dirty, you know, or whatever, but that's dumb, you know, I mean, they have an ongoing interaction. They.
58:35
JD Kelley
They are, you know, so there are a lot of astrologer, there are a lot of talismanic people that do. Do really amazing talismans, that they are one, they take on a part of it, you know, and then there's another person who is taking on the burden of another part. Then there are also people like myself that do. It's a one man shop, you know, kind of situation, one person shop around it, where you're going to get something from that is different, that you're not going to get from that other part, you know? But you also. I do think there's strengths on either side of it, and I think they both, you know, in all of those endeavors, they probably are also still both very skilled on all sides, too. It's just they create through that dynamic and, yeah, I just can't not do it.
59:30
JD Kelley
You know, I. It's like I get bothered, you know, I get hit on the head, and there's even pieces I've made that I know that I won't make a profit on, right? That I do out of devotion to it and the God or the spirits that are asking me to do it. Do you mean I. I do it for that? Not for the fact that I'm going to make enough money to really say it's commercially viable. So, yeah, that's my. And you can check it out. You know, there's still most stuff like it does.
01:00:07
JD Kelley
I think, when people are enthusiastic and you have a group of people who, I feel really honored to have a group of people who are patrons of my work, like, I think that is the most anybody who does this stuff, they are, we are all super humbled to all of you that value it because it is super. Validating is the wrong word, but it is like you are. Yeah, you're being given a context to do what you love, you know, and it's beautiful, that part. So I'm very humbled by that. I hope that comes through. And what I do, you know, I sit very deeply and I'm curious very deeply about unfolding.
01:00:54
JD Kelley
I recently did another spica piece and I was again shown, taught, started to understand things that I would not have understood otherwise, which is why I think outside of the making a living doing astrological magic, and everybody should do that because I don't, I really don't really think everybody should. Like, I don't think it's not a gatekeeping thing. I'm saying. I'm just saying that I think each of us has, it is a burden that comes with responsibility. And I think that those of us that try to do it well, we understand that burden, you know, and we don't tread, we don't do it lightly, you know. So if you don't have that, then maybe don't do that, you know, but you getting up to doing, like I said, having a piece of paper and some, and I know it sounds juvenile.
01:01:52
JD Kelley
I don't mean to be patronized, patronizing, anyway, I'm referring to that experience. It will cause something to happen for you. And it's really powerful. And I think it speaks to the heart of some of what all of this is that this, by doing it and being present to it with curiosity and sensitivity, I think we, a lot more is possible to be alive now in the world than we realize, you know, and I am very honored to be able to serve a role and also have, you know, get a lot of pleasure from it.
01:02:37
Jove Spucchi
Judy, I can speak for myself and many of the people I'm in community with that. We are very grateful for the work that you've done for AstroMagia, in particular, for creating space for folks to talk, to, present their work, but also just be in dialogue about their work. And it's been wonderful to hear a little bit more about the story that led up to that. So really deeply appreciate you sharing.
01:02:58
JD Kelley
Thanks so much. Yeah, thanks for your time today and your curiosity and asking me to even do this because I don't pursue context to share a lot very much just because I do think the people that are the right ones to be curious will show up eventually and I feel like it's special for me to be able to share it with you and those that you're also involved in creating. Place for people to be exposed to others and their ideas and what they're up to. So thank you very much.
01:03:32
Jove Spucchi
You're very welcome. Is there anything you'd like to share or point people towards for upcoming work? Where's the best place for people to find you?
01:03:41
JD Kelley
Just checking out my own work as it is with websites, there's a lot of stuff there, but services and offerings is kind of where you find everything that I do that I offer on that level. And I do give talks myself different places and just get on my mailing list at cunningasfolk.com
You'll eventually see at some point everything that I do and I'll make sure.
01:04:07
Jove Spucchi
To put those links in the description so people can follow up along with any social media or things like that. Jd, thank you so much. So appreciate you taking the time to be here. Can't wait to see the conference this year and look forward to all the panels and speakers and great dialogue that's sure to ensue.
01:04:23
JD Kelley
Amazing. Thank you so much.
01:04:25
Jove Spucchi
Jove to follow for future episodes and learn more about me Jove Spucchi, you can visit spucchi.com. That's spucchi.com.
